All right,
but we can always cut out anything that that we don't want to have in it. So, yeah, if everybody's ready, then we can launch. Hey,
well, welcome to Research Meets Reality. I'm Dr. Pam Kastner, and joining me, of course, is Dr. Stephanie Stollar, and we are honored and excited to be bringing two voices to our conversations: the person who studied the evidence-informed literacy practice and the educator who has figured out what the practice looks like with real students in real classrooms. We're starting with a question that is fundamental to literacy: How do students actually develop rich knowledge of words, and we couldn't have asked for a better researcher than Dr. Moddy McKeown. And Moddy's work has helped shape the field. Think about vocabulary instruction, word knowledge, and comprehension. Along with Isabel Beck and Linda Kucan, she co-authored "Bringing Words to Life," a book that has influenced vocabulary instruction for generations of educators, and sitting across from her virtually is Sean Morrissey, a teacher who took principles about vocabulary, morphology, spelling, reading, and writing, and worked to make them usable in everyday classroom instruction through the Word Mapping Project. So today we're going to do something we don't see nearly enough in literacy education, we're going to put the researcher and the practitioner together to ask what each can teach us. Over to you, Dr. Stollar.
Well, welcome, Sean and Moddy. Thanks so much for being with us today, Moddy. You have spent decades studying vocabulary comprehension, the teaching of both of those, and how students develop knowledge of words. Before we get into the research, I just want to know what initially drew you to this topic, this question of how students learn words. Well, it happened because when I first started working with Isabel as her research assistant, she had a project about to launch to look at basal reading programs and to kind of analyze each component and say, is this effective? Is this effective way to go about this? One of the components was introduction of vocabulary, which at that time basils would give a sentence with the word in, say the word was conspicuous, and they'd say, you know, the the tree that had purple leaves was conspicuous, and kids were somehow supposed to learn the word and then understand it when they read the story with that word in that had a completely different context, and we went, no, we don't think this is going to work. So we began to, you know, look into the literature. In you know, our starting point was we want to teach words in a way that's going to help comprehension. That's the that's the point, isn't it? So we began to realize that in order for that to happen, kids had to have lots of experiences with words, not kind of guess a word from context, not just have a definition. And at that time, lots of research showed correlations between comprehension and vocabulary. People with high vocabulary had had good comprehension, but finding that result where teaching vocabulary actually helped comprehension was pretty tough. So we began to say, well, how can we present vocabulary in a way that is really going to bring about understanding? It's going to help kids with their text, and that's when we started playing around with, you know, just surround them with words, sink them into words, have them use words, have them play with words, have them find words outside of classroom, and and that's the direction we we moved in.
So your idea was really to use the vocabulary knowledge to get stronger reading comprehension. Is that what I'm hearing? Absolutely. Do you have a way that you define what it means for a student to know a word?
Yeah. Well, it's it's sort of the flip side of that. Of of if you to know a word means you're able to use it in helping you work out the meaning of a text, and what that comprises is you've got to have a really strong mental representation of the phonology, orthography, and semantics—the sound, look, and meaning of that word. That's got to be in your head for every word you know, and you've got to have it come so fast when you read when you read a text. I know Sean agrees with this because this stuff is all over his Word Mapping Project. That's part of what we call the lexical quality hypothesis. You got to have sound, look, and meaning in order for that that word to be part of your comprehension. Part of what drives your comprehension. Nice. So I'm
taking. Sorry, go ahead, Stephanie. Oh, go ahead. So, Sean, you're looking at this from the teacher perspective. So, I know that you started out as a school psychologist, and then you ask your wife, and someone asked you, like, "What do you know about reading?" And you said, "I need to know more," and you decided to be a classroom teacher, and you've been there about 18 years now.
Yeah, I think this is my 19th year. Started my 19th. Congratulations
on that. So when you first started teaching, and you looked at likely the traditional ways that vocabulary was being taught, or can be taught at times, we see like just this definitional approach. Like, what caused you to question the instructional way that you solve vocabulary is being taught, and how did Moddy's work inform how you shifted your instruction and eventually moved you towards? Because I know it's been a long, long pathway towards the Word Mapping Project, so maybe you can tell us a little bit about your progression from you know, you know traditional teaching perhaps, or what you saw for vocabulary instruction, until then moving into this Word Mapping Project.
I think it probably started 25 years ago. My first year as a school, working as a school psychologist in the schools. You know, most of kind of the requests were thinking about does this student have a learning disability, and then we kind of have some of the traditional measures, and then there's some other measures, you know, especially like focus on like phonological processing. But language was always a big piece, like even in the cognitive batteries, like the Wechsler Intelligence Scales back 25 years ago, half of the half of quote your overall IQ was all language measures. It was like just general vocabulary, like similarities of things. So I would give give these assessments and then kind of try to have like recommendations for teachers. And it just at some point, like for me personally, I remember I I like ooh, I think I want to just do this and like live with as a teacher. I owe a debt of gratitude to Dr. McKeown because at that time, you know, when I was thinking about the language, especially with assessment, I'm like, well, how do kids, you know, acquire vocabulary language? And I'm not sure how I got it, but I I read Bringing Worth to Life. It was like one of my first, I would say, educate like like instructional books. And I and I remember to this day when when I went into teaching, I actually did I I had the interview and I was doing a like a my observation with a first grade class, and I never taught. So I went in an alternate pathway. I never taught one lesson before. I observed hundreds and hundreds, like as a school psych. But so funny, like the teachers thought. Like some of my teacher colleagues thought, oh, he is just going to massively fail here, like they were, they thought that was going to happen, and I did. Like even in my observation, I didn't fail because I used a structured vocabulary routine with a read aloud based off Bringing Words to Life. And I remember it was A Pocket for Corduroy, and I still remember the words drowsy, reluctant. That we did activities at the at the end of the book, and I remember I had a pretty good way with with with you know six year old kids. So you know, but I follow that routine, and you know, coming out of that interview, like I honestly felt really good. Like I'm like I kind of surprised myself. I was like, wow, this is my first time teaching, but I had the framework, right? You know, I had that, and the like that that lesson just went really, really well. So, and then from there, I think you know, I think every day, every year, I would just try to accumulate knowledge, and every year, just try to get a little bit better, better at teaching. Yeah,
I mean, you perfectly segued why this pod, you know, why this conversation is so important because you use the research to inform instruction, and it was successful. So thank what a great story, and and then Moddy, how wonderful to know the impact. And we know Sean is not the only educator. What's that impact from your work, but what a great way to start this conversation! Yes, Stephanie, do you want to add anything there?
Well, I'm just thinking. So many educators have benefited from that book, Bringing Words to Life. There might be one out there who hasn't read it. So, would you give us like the find
them? Yes.
Well, after this conversation, they will be rushing to get a copy, but would you give us the the summary of the research on teaching vocabulary that's encapsulated in that book and the routines that Sean mentioned?
Sure, it's introduce well introduce words explicitly. Give kids a meaning for the word. Don't take it out of the dictionary unless you use Collins online. They're great. Have it be an explanatory format, and you don't have to even say this word means blah blah blah. You just give an example of a of a use, like say solitary. If I'm solitary, it means I'm I'm all alone. I'm by myself. You you can give it that way, but then right away get kids to use to think about and use the word. Like if you use the word solitary, I'm alone. So have you ever felt solitary? Or when you go, do you like to be solitary sometimes? And go where do you go if you want to be solitary, and get kids to respond to it and use it in as many ways as as we can. And the other thing that happened that's really good with that, and I know Sean does this all the time beautifully, is then say solitary. What else? What else? What does that make you think of? Oh, then put down alone, lonely, maybe lonely, by myself, you know, quiet—all the things you can relate to. Where it says, "Okay, let's let's think of a sentence that has solitary and quiet in it," and just just just keep doing that. You know, attention to the words, using words together, words that connect, or words that even don't. I mean, maybe you also teach the word leisure and say, well, you know, can you put solitary and leisure in a sentence that two words that don't seem to have anything to do with each other, but it still challenges kids to think about the aspects of both words and and how they can come together, even though they're they're they don't mean anything anything similar at all. So it's that, and it's just keeping that going every day. Keep those words. Do something else with the words the next day. What's an example of a solitary activity? What's something you might do when you're at leisure? Show me how your cat looks when it's when it's feeling leisurely. I mean, it's you know, say it, do it, show it, and also keep the words so kids can see them and are reminded about them all the time. Get kids to use the words in writing. One of the things that that we like to tell teachers to do or suggest is you know have a box like a recipe box and have a four by six card for each word where you put the word, the meaning, and a sentence. And then maybe sometimes you go, okay, we're going to have a writing. We're going to do a writing assignment today, and then call on a kid, have him go, and just randomly pick three words from the box. We're going to use these words in our writing. Say what they are. Say who can who can remind me of the meaning. Just just to have those vocabulary words in the air all the time.
Yeah, lots of repetition. It sounds like, and what I'm also hearing is the the student use of the words. Absolutely important.
Absolutely. And when we say repetition, it's not repeating like repeating the definition or repeating, you know, if kids if kids keep using the same examples, then try to get them off to use another one. Like with the word reluctant, that was a that was a famous one because teach gazette, and then I can't remember who was teaching the class, but we're saying to kids, "Can you use the word reluctant?" And they, somebody said, "I would be reluctant to go to the dentist." Oh, okay, why? And then the next kid, "I would be reluctant to go to the doctor." I'd be. It was all the same. And then so finally, the teacher said, "Who can give me an example of reluctance? Anything to do with doctors or dentists?" I would be reluctant to change a baby's diaper. We're like, yes. So repetition means, yeah, using the same words over and over. Get get kids to, but kid get kids to, you know, put a new hook on it each
time.
Nice, Sean. When I hear Moddy talk, and I've heard some of your podcast too, and know a little bit about your work as well, I always want to know more. But what I heard was the integration of language. You know, phonology. I say the word, and you say the word. Like even when we started, I had Moddy and Stephanie, and I had her pronounce her last name because we want to have phonologically encode that correctly, which we would then map orthographically on to their written form, semantically to know what the word means, morphologically to know its you know the form and structure of that word, so that lexical quality of having that rich semantic webs of knowledge, and also I heard lots of oral language, you know, lots of conversation about the words, and not just when you're teaching a routine, which is very essential to have a structured routine. Especially when we have teachers in different domains, we want them to have the same structure so that we don't have a cognitive load for students if they're teaching a science word or a social studies word or what have you. But I also heard a lot about deliberate practice, where the practice is not repetition. We're really looking at the cognitive science in terms of like retrieval practice when we're pulling those words back out of the, you know, the four by four index cards, and so we're using them in reading, writing, listening, and speaking. And so when you hear that, I'm sure you're seeing your own classroom, right? And so, tell us how that looks in your classroom because I know you integrate that with a Word Mapping Project. But also, language is literacy. Literacy is language, so it's all day, every day. So, can you talk about that too? The intentionality and also perhaps the distributed work in terms of vocabulary over time and practice.
Yeah, I think I'll just start with just like it's robust vocabulary. That they, you know, that's the the name. Like, it's not just one lesson. It's just not teaching one word in a one-off. It is like languages every single second of the day, and it doesn't necessarily have to be like always explicitly teaching a word. It you know you're just incorporating language like language throughout the day and just making. But sometimes you have to be you have to be intentional because sometimes I'll have a list of words at the start of the day like oh I definitely want to use these words throughout the day in my language. Like for for example, if I if I don't explain sort of like not rules, but some some of our routines right like really well on the first day, and the kids are confused. And I I'll just go back to this. I'll just say, okay, looks like you're confused. My directions were definitely ambiguous. They were not clear, and let's make them more, you know, more clear. So even though like that's not a deliberate, like explicit, you know, teaching of the word ambiguous. If I do that over time in a couple of different ways, I think the kids will naturally just just just pick that word up, and you know, just kind of having that mindset that I'm going to really try to use words all day long, and it's just a part of like the kind of class classroom culture. I think kind of like big, big, big, big picture. You know, with with that with that part. I also try like little things where once kids have like one word known pretty well, I'll I'll you know I'll try to attach another word where like oh you look real like say the students already learned the word elated oh you look pretty happy you're elated today but you look so happy you must be euphoric like ooh why are you so happy why are you euphoric right now you know, and just like and getting kids to, you know, respond, you know, to that language, kind of, kind of big picture, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that's so important because I think, you know, there's there's lots of, you know, examples we give in the book and that that Sean has with his Word Mapping Project are you know lessons and plans and and sort of structured ways to go about it, which is important. But it doesn't always have to be that. In fact, you should do more than that. And even if you somehow can't get around to starting the lessons like that, if you just start small with the kinds of things that Sean is exemplifying by just using a word in the classroom, maybe writing it on the board, maybe at the end of the day you say, "What do you think I meant by that?" I mean, so many ways to do it where you can just use it, challenge kids to use it, or then get more explicit with it, and that itself will will be really important because one of the things we want to do is really breed an awareness of words and kids, and an enjoyment of words. That that you know, this is your language. This is how you present yourself to the world by what you can you can say and write. So the you know the more you you learn, the the more power you have.
I I kind of go back with. I think he's. I call. I call the vocabulary researchers the Pittsburgh group because there's so many from there. Charles Perfect. Eastern Pennsylvania.
I'm very proud of that you'd say the Pittsburgh group.
Charles Perfetti's from Pittsburgh as well. Correct.
Absolutely. Yeah.
So like getting back to like routines or that. I mean, I think it happened. in elementary and especially especially secondary, where we leave out sort of the most important part right away, where kids are not saying the word that you're teaching them. Like how many like, but it has to be, and I'm not, and I don't want to speak for my secondary like teachers, but like I don't think it's common practice when they're teaching words to have the whole class chorally respond and say that word out loud, and even even at the elementary level, that's left off. So the first thing, you know, any type of word that we're that's in instruction, you know, the next word we're learning today is elated. What's the word? And so they're phenal, you know. Phonologically saying saying that word, you know, I think the the lexical quality that that has like is really impacted me just with sound spelling and meaning. So and just trying to keep those like I I don't mind having the same routine you know throughout some parts of the day where you know when I teach I found teaching words in pairs has worked really, really well. Just because when you move to the spelling part, kids can differentiate through spelling. So if I'm teaching elated, I'll teach like the word glum. Or if I teach congregation, I'll teach segregation. And it's always I say the word, you say it. Friendly, friendly, concise definition for students, like just explaining in student-friendly terms, and a couple of examples. And and if you teach them in pairs, what I like is if you're doing like elated and glum, then you can give kids examples at the end, and they could have their mini whiteboards out. So it's 100% participation, and you know, you know, you could say, "Oh, the family went to the amusement park, and they and they were really excited on the roller coaster. You know, how are they feeling?" And you know, students are either spelling elated or glum. So then they're getting that orthography, that spelling practice right away in there as well, so I think that's definitely has has helped my students for sure.
And in a a low threatening way, you know, you're not giving them a spelling test, but you're asking them to write the word down and show it to you. And that's I think that's really important because it's not so much that kids should be able to spell all these words, it's that they have to know the look of them. So doing things like that, you know, having a whiteboard where they have to write out the word, even if they're not spelling it 100% correctly, is fine as long as they're getting in their mind mostly what it looks like, and then starting to attend to those components of the words they're learning.
Fine with many whiteboards too. I mean, I'm all about all student responses. I'm not a big proponent at all of this, but what I'm doing, I'm sure you're doing too, Sean, is when they are writing that word related, it gives you so much. It gives you this time formatively to see who's writing it, who's looking over at a peer, right? So you're formatively kind of assessing, not only you know do them to understand the meaning, but also can they spell it right, and then you know have a routine for them to show that. But then you're getting 100% response from the students, not just you know from, and also by including that sentence, you're embedding that in syntax, right? So where is that? Where would that word fit in in terms of syntax, so in that context, yes.
And kids are always relating. So when when I have students do that, I I don't like kids to ever just wait and just sit there with it. Say say they like say I was teaching the word words approach and evade. So say an example sentence, um, you know the answer was approach. They would write approach, but then I have kids write underneath approach, like related words. They don't have to be exact synonyms. Usually, they're not. Just so they're so even some of your maybe more advanced kids are a little quicker. They're writing more and more words, and then you could have. Then it brings up great conversations. I know this was one of the a really good one happened in my room this year. The main word was approach, and one student wrote convergent congregation and attract underneath. So they're not synonyms. However, and this is definitely bringing like the the the work from Bringing Words to Life. Like you know, then I just kind of slowly guided. Okay, I held that board up and I just said to students, "Okay, here are four words. How are these related? Turn and talk." So the kids are, you know, 100% participation. They're talking with a partner, and then I just called on a couple of students, and and then I just try to like afterwards like support what they're saying, but then give a little bit more information, so it doesn't. So it's so they really know. And I remember that when I went, so I said like, oh yeah, like convergent boundaries, like with plate tectonics. You know, when continental boundaries hit. So then that we're putting the content in there, and you know they come closer together. Like when you approach someone, you come closer together. And you know when I said about the continental boundaries, well, that's how mountains are formed. They hit and and or attract. Well, at means to or toward, and track means to pull. Oh, things that are pull towards one another. So we kind of had those conversations, and they are starting. I would hope that they're getting this map of oh, here are really related words, but we wouldn't necessarily use them the same in writing or that kind of thing.
Decision, yeah.
I love all of the ways that you're making connections and the. The way you're maximizing what might be incidental opportunities in the classroom, and and you're integrating these like layers and aspects of language, but I can hear teachers listening to this thinking, and asking, how do you make time for that in your lessons during your school day? How are you making time to notice what somebody wrote on their whiteboard and elevate it in conversation with your class? What makes you prioritize that, and how are you finding time to do that?
Yeah, I mean, and I so there's there's opportunity cost with anything. So if you're going to take a few minutes doing that, of course, you're not. You're gonna have a few minutes less of doing something else. Where, as teachers, you you know you have to make that judgment. Like it's it's okay to make that judgment. Maybe something doesn't get taught for two or three minutes that day. I think being very organized about vocabulary, you you can't always do it off the cuff. You need routines and structures, I'm for sure, and I think it's a lot of it's practice. I did not, I and I, I did not start with this huge lexicon when I was 20 years old. You know, I grew up in a very working class family, and you know, I definitely like speech wise, probably at least half or more teachers start off stronger than me with with language. I honestly I practiced and I just tried. And every like I mean now I'm in my 19th year teaching. Every year I slowly I think did more and I got a little better. And it certainly didn't happen where I am now. It didn't happen overnight, and you know I just tried a little bit more. I I kind of then maybe put more structures in place. I tried a little more, and then you know now it's just it's just what it is in my classroom. I don't have to. I'm not cognitively overloaded. I can just you know go back and forth you know fairly easily, but not not not perfect. But yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, that's great.
I think that's so important. So first of all, my first reaction is, if you're not making time for language and vocabulary, what are you doing? What
are you making time for?
But but that you can start small. Start, you know, planning. Yeah, two words you're going to introduce to the kids that have either been in a book you read or somehow you know came to mind that these might be good words for kids you know give them the meaning do some some work with those and then move on the next day review those say remember we talked about this word who can give me a sentence with the word and add another word, and then and then at the end of the week begin to be putting it into your head. Where can I drop these words into the classroom? Or ask the kids to find examples of these words outside of class, because then you don't have to do any more work, and the kids are doing the work, and they will bring those words in. I think it's so important to point out that attention to vocabulary is a self-watering plant. Once you start this, the kids will grab onto it and and just run with it. So starting small, but having it be there every day, you know, formal, formally and informally, it's just going to take off.
This is a question that I've always wondered about. Maybe there's no answer to this kind of question, but what is the best source for the words that you want to teach to students? Where should they come? Is there a preferred source?
You know, there's not one source. There's not a
single source. No,
no. You know there are lists all over the place. The academic word list and the academic vocabulary list, which are online everywhere, are good places to go. But I would never use a list as let's go down this list and teach all the words. Yeah. It it is really to give you an idea, and and that's why we developed this you know tears thing is to try to put in your head the kind of word you're looking for. Words that are not the ones we use in conversation every day for the most part turn up in text a lot. Are often have nuances, different senses of meaning. Words that you know from if you think back on your own experience. Words that pop up in texts and in newspapers and and things like that, and then you know if you think like what you know I don't know what word then look in the things that kids that you're reading in class you should find some of those words or even if not those words maybe a simple word that reminds you of you know the maybe it's reading about you know he he very it was very obvious and he stood out and you go oh that oh that makes me think of the word conspicuous I could teach the kids that word and show them how it's not used in this story but the idea is so that's another way to do it but. You know, look at consulting those lists and saying, okay, which words here do I want to start with, or do I have have I been seeing or reading myself? So you know, those are things that can get a teacher started.
Yeah, great ideas. Thank you,
Moddy. Why are you too? Because one, you know, Sevi and I both work with you know teachers and students, you know, K to 12. So one thing I I would really like your input on is like the tier three words. So as students go up in the grade levels, of course, we we hope they are always engaging in those tier two words that you just talked about, of course. But a lot of the vocabulary that they engage with is very domain specific. So can you tell me a little bit about because it's there's this you know what do we have time to teach and what should have a focus and so is there is there a transition as students you know move up the grade levels can you you know give me oh thank you for not thank you so share some of that with me from the research that we know, and and to inform like upper elementary, middle school, high school teachers, tell me about that.
So first of all, it's not that tier three words are harder or higher grade level than tier two words. There are some very hard tier two words that I'm just learning. There are tier three words that are really pretty easy. The word trombone is a tier three word because it's only used in the domain of music. So that's one thing that I think you know. Maybe teachers need to be a little. Maybe we weren't clear enough on that. Teachers need to be a little more familiar with that. Tier three words we think of as not really vocabulary words. Those are concept words that you use when you're learning about that domain. Now, often in text, in content text, there are of course tier three words, but there are also lots of tier two words. Like Sean gave the example of the word convergent. That's a tier two word that, but yet that may trip kids up in reading a content area text. So it's important to think about, you know, are we talking a tier three word that's in a content area text that's tripping kids up, or are really talking about a tier three word, the domain word, the word tectonic plate or something like that. So I think it's it's important to try to pick those apart. And if you're teaching content, really looking look at that text and say, okay, what are the the words that are just related to that content, and what are some other words that are maybe supporting or explaining those concepts that are tier two that I need to teach.
Did you want? It looks like you want to respond to that too.
Me? No.
No. No. Sean. Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead. I
think like when when I think of more the content area words, say like the word perimeter in math, and in upper elementary kids, get confused in fourth and fifth grade between formulas for area and perimeter all the time. Like it just it happens all the time. They learn the formula for perimeter. They learn the formula for area. Then a month, two down the road, you know they're doing the wrong formula. I like definitely thinking about morphology with the with many of the content words because they, you know, when you think about perimeter, well, like meter is measure and p e r i is around, and if fourth graders just were taught that that language part of it, they probably and I know that they they're definitely less likely to to mix up those those formulas or like democracy. Well, DEM is people, and crassy means rule. Like thinking about maybe the morphology with tier, like kind of with those content tier three words a little bit more. That's just what I've I've seen in my classroom to be helpful.
Really good idea. Yeah, yeah. Make the word meaningful. Don't just toss out a definition for it, but show kids why it means that. Is yeah,
I know, Sean. You you've moved. I know you've moved more into morphology. So do you want to share a little bit about that, and maybe a little bit more about the Word Mapping Project?
Yeah, I just like when I when I think about like where where I started with just starting, you know, reading, Bringing Words to Life, and just doing more and more every year. Then I, I just I I wanted to think like structure things, and you know, so like I'm I'm doing less things like off the cuff, and so with like the curriculum that I develop with the Word Mapping Project is trying to like layer in, so it's it's really robust vocabulary instruction. You know, you're explicitly teaching words in pairs. You know, kids are pronouncing the words, they're spelling the you know the words, they're using words in writing. There's there's lots of opportunities for practice in you know in a variety of different. Sentences with the morphology. I think this was a a piece that really kind of ramped that up. Where I tried to layer in, and I'm I'm using a lot of morphology matrices, and it's hard to visualize. But say you know the word G R E G is a base. It's a root that means group or flock, and you could build words with prefixes and suffixes attached to that base. So if you have you know Greg as the base, you can make congregate, you can make segregate or congregation segregation. You could create the word gregarious. You know, you know, going back to when when Dr. McKeown said the word solitary, I was thinking, yes, would a gregarious person like you know like solitude and you know linking those and like of course they wouldn't because they want to be part of a group. They're talkative, so hitting that layer of morphology. But what I felt is like having some words anchored first. So before I teach the morphology, I explicitly teach, and they spell the word congregation, segregation. So they kind of have that as an anchor to start with. So then, when they're learning more words, I think that anchors it's helpful, and then they could they could build more words off of that, but like you know, I think matrices and especially what I found they've been especially helpful in in actually helping kids spell words, which is because because kids are breaking the words up into meaningful parts, not just phonology like syllables. So doing both, you know, thinking about you know, it is a we we do have a morphophonomic language, breaking the words up both based on phonology and like syllables and meaningful parts into morphemes. I think is really really helpful.
Yeah, morphings those stable spellings, but pronunciation can shift, and that makes it tricky for the spelling. Go go ahead.
I just was going to ask Moddy as you listened to Sean talk about you know his instruction. Are there elements of that that really line up with what you understand to be evidence based? And are there any pieces of that where the research is more light or emerging?
It lines up perfectly with the evidence base in that again, teaching words explicitly, getting kids to use words, and this integration of you know sound, look, and and meaning of the word, which I don't think you're looking back on, I don't think we did enough of in our in our early work. We would you know we would always say the word, but I don't know that we always had the kids say it. You know, definitely repeat it. They would they would use the word, but I think that that Sean's right. We that should be specific and explicit part of the teaching. So that's really important. The morphology, which is something that's come into the research, I think a little more recently about using that in vocabulary, that's so helpful and interesting for kids because I think you know language can be kind of a puzzle, and all these words are being thrown at them, and are supposed to learn. But if kids begin to understand this is this is you know we can break it down, and these pieces mean something. We can put them together in different ways, it takes some of the mystery out of learning words, and also helps them understand where language comes from. And you start to talk about the history of of English and and why we have these these strange words that that you know are pronounced in different ways. They come from different languages, and this is how we put them together. And I think that really opens kids' minds about oh now I get it and all and also it's not like I'm this person who's so put upon I have to learn all these stupid words to say oh that's what it's all about it's so useful I think that but getting back to Sean's program the only thing that I would quibble with at all that I've seen in the Word Mapping Project is taught is talking about affixes, prefixes, and suffixes, and I don't think he does this to you know overdoes this at all. But I just get concerned when he talks about affixes that teachers might take that as oh, so I should be teaching kids all the prefixes and stuff. Let's have a lesson on un. Let's have a lesson on re. That doesn't work because the meanings are much less stable. Just for example, undo and uncut. You can undo something. You can't uncut something. So, I I think Sean has the right emphasis on it. Is to you know show those parts and say, "Oh, this is a part that you know we put on different words. But I just want to make sure that teachers don't think, "Oh, therefore I should do lessons on on prefixes and suffixes. I mean, that's different from roots, Latin roots mostly, some Greek roots that really do have meaning unto themselves. That that we build words from.
So, are you saying maybe to avoid the the teaching of a meaning of a prefix, for example, in isolation? But but would it be preferable to, in the context of a specific word, draw students' attention to the meaning of that?
Sure, how it changes, and also drawing the attention to prefixes and and especially suffixes helps kids with the the orthography because they see oh it's that familiar word I see in there. I was getting all distracted by you know this this ending and this and this prefix, so that I think that's that's helpful and useful. But do it sort of on a, you know, we've run into these three words. Let's talk about them and and how they got constructed. I see.
That's what I hear from from you when you talk about it, Shaman. Yeah, and I just recently had a conversation with Sue Heglin, and it absolutely mirrored exactly what you just said, Moddy. So that was so interesting to hear.
Oh,
Moddy, is there any other research that you want to bring forth? Like you say, you know, here's emerging research. Here's what we know. I think we've been pretty clear, you know, just in our conversation, what we know about effective vocabulary instruction. But is there anything that's exciting you, or something you're wondering about, or you know, since you know, both Dr. Stollar and I, you know, are engaged with higher education. Do any research that you think that new doctoral students should be researching around vocabulary instruction?
Ooh, ooh, awesome! I
so my phone. Sorry, put you on the spot. I love
it. Yeah, because so much of the research that we, I mean, there's such a consensus about what we need to do in vocabulary. I think demonstrations of it in the classroom, like you know Sean is doing, are really important because I think a lot of times teachers are, you know, they don't. How do I get in there? How do I start with that? Oh, I can. If I just give them a definition, that that might be useful. If they if they see examples of this and see see how it grew, and I love the way Sean talks about. You know, he didn't know all this at first, but but he it just got put together step by step. I think that's really important. That's the the message I think we need to to give to teachers.
Pedagogy like to see it and practice. I know, and I you know I have been you know had the honor of being in the my own classroom for a little while, but I always knew that I wanted to see another teacher. I want how did you do it? So I've been a really strong proponent of really high quality videos of teachers, you know, engage in really, and then almost like you know, I always say football coaches look at tape and they break down all the skills and you know how valuable it is. When I had that opportunity with teachers to look at a lesson together and just take it apart and you know really talk about what that instructional move they made and the impact it had on the kids, and oftentimes looking at the video from the students' point of view, knowing what the teacher is doing, but seeing how the students interact, I think it's really, really important for teachers to see what it looks like too. Like
when we were working with teachers, we would often use video, and then we'd have them all come together, and we'd we'd go through a transcript, and they told us that was something they loved so much because they never got to see each other teach, and they were
isolating for finishing the times.
Yeah, and it was so much fun to see their reactions. And I can remember teachers saying, "Oh, I respect you so much more now, seeing your teaching." And it was just, it was lovely. They learned something. They they had more of a community feeling together. Yeah, that's yeah,
yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that one of the greatest honors you can have is when a peer comes in and sees you teach and says, "Wow, I love how you did that, and I saw the kids learned, and I'm stealing that from you." And you know, that reduces that variation that we have between our classrooms, right? We that's what we want to do. We want to have effective instruction in every classroom. And speaking of that, you know, Sean, you can add to that, but I, you want to talk about the impact the Word Mapping Project has had on your students' learning too?
Yeah, I so I just think not not talking about like data points. I'm I'm you know I'm a school psychologist at Nature, so I like to bring up data, but just things that students will write to me that are are are kind of kind of profound, or just those different experiences. Like you know, I wrote about this on Substack. Um, a student left a pen on my desk one day, and I sort of commandeered the pen, and I had the pen like lasted for two months. I never lost that pen, and it ran out. The ink ran out one day, and I'm and I like overplayed it. Like I was so upset, and like then the kids just started having fun. I mean, and this seriously happened. The one the one student is like yells out, "Mr. Morrissey looks so solemn and like he's full of anguish," and they just started saying all of these different words. And then I know, like one of my students, and you know he's definitely not a sitter, and he's like jumps up. He goes, "I have an idea." He picks up like one of his like pen inserts, and he's like, "We can transplant this." And then I actually tried for a couple minutes, and I was becoming furious because the pen was not made to transplant the other one, but the kids were just having fun with that. Or I know, like one of my students, like her favorite word of the year was egregious and superfluous, and she's like, I am going to use that word egregious tonight at my soccer game. That is when the ref when the ref makes his first terrible call, I'm going to say that was an egregious fowl, and I'm like, I'm like, I'm not sure if you should do it. And I'm gonna get your red card. Please do. I'm like, please do. I want to. I want to see. And like, even superfluous. Like one one of my students wrote, like me. I think it was for Valentine's Day, like a little notebook. And at the end, there was like a sentence with like 20 exclamation marks, and she and she puts a little arrow, a superfluous amount of of marks. So I think those are the things data like it's not gonna that's not gonna show up into data. But like the kids, you know, when when a student says I now have a like a more massive lexicon than my mom, that like that matters, right? Yeah. Gosh,
that's that's dazed as a teacher, you know, you walk out and you you know you're walking on air. Yeah. Because that's I mean that's why every teacher teaches. They want to make a difference, you know. And yes, we have the quantitative data, and we we need need that as well. But that qualitative data, that life changing, you know, language that you're giving them to describe their life, there's there's nothing that's better than that.
Yeah, and I think from from the like the data data and Dr. McKeown could jump in because she's the expert here with this. Like one of the hard things with vocabulary, it's not like reading fluency where you know those that you can get measurable difference in a short amount of time. Well, with vocabulary, you're asking lots of different questions. You don't necessarily see like you know based on there's no there's you know you don't have like progress monitoring vocabulary assessments. That's not like it's not really a thing. But what I've seen in my classroom, just you know, linking it to reading comprehension, language in general, spelling for sure. I have some even on standardized tests. I've seen some really really good results from from the start of fifth grade to the end of fifth grade. And I'm sure
you've seen it in the writing too. That transfer where they're using more precision and robust words in their writing because that oral language is oral rehearsal for the written form of the words. I'm sure you've seen some of that too. The
the writing is you can't like it's not something measurable on a standard, but you just 100% for for for sure with writing because when when students really know a word, they can precisely use it in their writing. Like some students understand a word, it helps them with reading comprehension. Like they don't get you know tripped up, but when students are are embedding those words into their own writing and using a very precise word to describe a character, you know the character's irate versus annoyed, that really matters. You can't be a sophisticated, a really strong writer without that precision of language, and the only way to get like to me as a teacher, the only way to get there is to build it. You know, we talk about write like editing with writing, and one of the common things is well, add more like sophisticated vocabulary. Well, you can only do that if you have it, and you know, and you you need you need the whole day where you're just you know you're just talking and talking about words. When we talked about research-wise, I remember a study. I wonder. I hopefully it could be replicated. I forgot the authors a few years ago was second grade, where I think they actually audiotaped the teachers' rooms and the teachers that used the most academic vocabulary throughout the year, those students had significantly better vocabulary at the end, and that's just by teacher talk. And I'm not sure if that's been replicated. Like, I want someone to come in my room and do that. Tony
Lasso has done research on that as well. Okay, in the upper upper grade, so maybe Moddy knows that research. You can,
yeah. Actually, I I can't remember exactly. I can't remember who the authors was were on it, but I've seen that result a couple of different ways. With I think with both younger and older children looking at the teachers, the teacher, yeah, exactly the teacher use of words in the classroom and how that affects the words that the students learn, or the the students' language, but you know, and it's things like that that I think we need to pursue. So, asking what kind of research should be done out there, I think this is an important direction: is how to how to assess, how to figure out what kids are learning in vocabulary. Because Sean's exactly right; it's very hard to measure vocabulary. Growth with standardized measures. You give a vocabulary test, and if the words the kids haven't been learning aren't on that test, it's not going to show you anything for the most likely. And similarly with the standardized reading comprehension test, vocabulary is a big part of that, but unless the words kids are learning are are in those texts that are on that test, you're not going to see it. So that's why when we did our work, we tried to come up with measures, and often, you know, reviewers would say, "Oh, well, these are our researcher-designed measures, and we're like, "Yeah, that's what we've got to use because we want to know did they learn what we taught them? Right. So we we would design texts that had the words that we had taught, and then ask kids questions about them, or we would ask kids. We called it context interpretation. Could it could a student really use the word in understanding? So we'd say one of the items was like when father saw Julie rip up the word, the rip up the letter from Steve, he he complimented her on that. I think was something like that. And so, why would he? So the and our question was not was compliment means, but so what did father think of Steve? So they had to go a couple steps down the path to figure out. Oh, that meant because complimenter is a good thing, but she ripped up a letter. So, you know, we wanted to see if that kind of thinking was occurring with kids. So it's those kinds of assessments that you can give to kids that really let you know: Are they learning? Are they learning what you're teaching them? And are they now able to
use it?
Yeah, yeah. I like. I I just want to in the curriculum in the unit assessments. That's what we're looking for. Can the kids use the words? Like, I'll just. I have an example right here. I just picked up. Imagine your school is planning a big event. Describe what it would look like if the school decided to augment the event, or what it would look like if they chose to curtail it. So, like, you're not like it's not a definition, but like they have to apply it to it to to like that type of setting. Yes, and that's where you get so much valuable, and like that's so much valuable information. Yeah.
Yes, thinking about like you know, cognitive science, you're really moving from acquisition to building fluency, to generalization and adaptation-that's where you want to get them because that's where, you know, learning is a change in long-term memory. It's not just that they've, you know, understood like on a like a shallow level, but the student-friendly definition or the definition of it that they can apply it and generalize it to conditions beyond what they've been taught in. Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah, it's building that network in their heads for for word meaning.
Yeah, it's been a great conversation. I know, I know. I feel like it really has. So I don't know, Stephanie. Do you have maybe yeah followed a lot of final one for Moddy? Yes, we have.
Yeah, I don't know. I think I've gotten all of mine and then some, some that occurred to me in the moment answered. But is there anything we didn't ask you that you want us to ask you before we wrap up?
Oh, I know one more thing. I think another thing is, it's really teachers should be free to share what they don't know. So if a word, if they come across a word that they don't know, share that with kids. Even if it happened outside of school, say, you know what, I ran into this word the other day. I didn't know what it means. Here's what the sentence was. I I couldn't figure it out, so I went and looked it up. Something like that. Or if if a student asks a teacher a word that they don't happen to know, say, oh, I don't, you know, I don't know that word. Let me let's put it on the board and we'll look it up later. And the thing I never want to hear: I was in a classroom once, and the the teacher somehow the word nonchalant was being introduced, and the teacher talked about the meaning. And then a kid raised his hand, said, "Does that mean not challant? And the teacher said no, and moved on. It was something I'd never thought about before because we don't use a word "shalant" in English, but it should make you stop and go, "Oh, non. Hmm, that's a good question. Let me find out.
I actually take it one step further. I'll say, "I, I, I don't know. I'm not sure what that word means." And so I usually, because I'll forget sometimes if I well, we'll write it down. But like your homework assignment for extra credit is to go home and figure it out yourself, and then you could come in and teach the class the next day. So, like that's one nice thing about having routines. Um, now with fifth graders, if I know, like I'm going to be out at a meeting or something, I don't leave those plans for the teacher. If I know ahead of time, I'll have this a student take it home, and the student actually does the vocabulary routine, and one of my students leads it.
Wow! And
they practice. Yeah, it's pretty. It's really really cool.
Another great shout out. For structure and instructional routines that are consistent, that kids can be automatic with, and and hopefully not just happening in your classroom, but pervasive through your school, so that language pervades every single classroom and the culture and climate of an entire school. What a how powerful that could be. So I'm going to close it up. You can ask your final question for Moddy, and what's one thing, Sean? I know I think Moddy was absolutely correct that, you know, just start, start small, but start, and then just incrementally, just keep improving on your practice and keep learning. You know, if we have the honor of teaching children, we have the moral responsibility to continue to learn and serve the best way to serve, but if there was one one takeaway, teachers who are listening that you want them to take away, what would it be?
One takeaway.
One takeaway.
I think first of all, you. I mean. I mean, and I'm serious about this. If you haven't read "Bringing Words to Life," you you might you because that because that gets it. It gets you thinking, and it gets the ball rolling for sure. And then you want to read it again.
Read it again. I teach it in our doctoral course. I read it every semester, and I love it. And I've read it many, many times. And so you never come back as a reader the same person, right? So true.
And I just like I think I think that's that's the like that. That to me is just just start and just try to do a little bit more each day. And even little things like how to incorporate language in your day. Like I think the best informal assessment of language are dad jokes, because you could tell in the first week, like because it's all background knowledge and a content, or a lot of it's just language. The kids who really get the dad jokes right away, they generally are the ones with huge lexicon, and the kids who don't, they don't have that. So I want research. I want one researcher to actually write an assessment where it's just around dad jokes.
Oh, do it! You have to write an article about write an article about dad jokes. Oh my gosh! Reading teacher would accept it like that.
Is that right?
That's great. I love
it.
Moddy, is there any final words for teachers? Is there one nugget from the research that you hope every teacher would understand and and take into the classroom?
Just just do it. Use some words. Get kids to use some words. That's
yeah. Great advice. You you all have really demonstrated both of you today. I think the the titles of some of Moddy's publications, Bringing Words to Life and Taking Delight in in Words. Right, like that's what you've demonstrated how important it is. That's demonstrated through research, and Sean, you've given us wonderful examples of how that can be fostered and cultivated in classrooms. So we appreciate you both.
And do you want to close it up? We have a nice little closing.
Yeah, if you have it in front of you, you should read it, please.
Oh, okay. You are first. Okay, so today's conversation is exactly why we created Research Meets Reality. Research gives us evidence, principles, and boundaries for what we know about learning. Practice gives us the lived experience of turning those principles into instruction with real students, real classrooms, unexpected responses, and professional judgment, and when those two forms of expertise meet and collaborate and share, our understanding gets better. So thank you so much for joining Dr. Stollar myself for thank for joining us for Research Meets Reality.
Thank you
both. You're
welcome. It was fun.
It was.
